Apr
03
Internet Famous, Dirt Poor
Posted by Tim Bourquin
I’ve been thinking about this subject all week and it’s starting to bother me.
In the “old days” anyone who was famous in the media had the big bucks that naturally accompanied that fame. But these days, there seems to be a whole lot of folks that are “Internet famous” because of blogging, podcasting, Twitter, flickr, etc. and yet need to ask their audience for donations in order to buy a better microphone. It’s a bizarre and ironic result of the ability for anyone and everyone to start producing content and gather an audience.
Sure, there’s a great deal of talk about how one can leverage fame into fortune with speaking gigs, book deals, TV appearances and jobs with Fortune 500 companies. But how many people have actually turned their fame into real dollars? Not many, simply because great content creators often aren’t always great marketers. You can say that great content will open doors all by itself, but in reality it just doesn’t work that way.
Twitter, blogs, podcasts and new media in general have created a wave of “famous” people - people with a “wealth” of attention and inbound links, but can’t pay their bills at the end of the month. Worse yet, some seem to think that if you do find a way to make your living successfuly, you’ve “sold out” and are no longer true to your audience. That’s a shame and it needs to change.
The “link” and “attention” may be the currency of the Internet, but until someone can show me how to pay my mortgage by linking to my bank once a month, that just doesn’t fly with me.
I hope it’s one of the many conversations we can all have at the New Media Expo this August. Feel free to comment here to get the conversation started.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Hi Tim:
I think this is a great post on a topic that comes up every time I make a presentation or give a speech on new media. A lot of what you say is true and I hope I can attend the Expo again this year to be part of the conversation.
I’d like to offer a few thoughts on this.
To start with, utilizing these new communication mechanisms in a way that generates cash flow is something that takes aggressive effort not unlike any business model. We work hard at branding our identity using these tools in an industry that few would consider it for - agribusiness. To date my company manages over 15 blogs and 10 regularly produced podcasts. These all focus on ag (company, member organization, our own ag news blogs/podcasts). Income comes from site/podcast design/development/build/maintenance/content creation and our client list now contains some of the biggest names in this industry. For many of the client blogs, we write and produce their posts for example. Everything we do is made clearly transparent too btw.
We have developed 3 industry news blogs of our own that rival traditional media outlets for content. They’re rich in custom produced multi-media content and only internet delivered. They have direct advertising but most of their income comes from sponsored industry event coverage. My personal industry news blog is AgWired - http://www.agwired.com on which I’m integrating Twitter, Flickr and YouTube in addition to my weekly podcast and posting. It generates significant income and if anyone is wondering it’s a nice 6 figure amount and has been for going on 2 years now.
My observation is that most people aren’t willing to work hard enough and aren’t patient enough to develop their content and in a lot of cases are trying too hard to reach everyone. I’m not sure that’s a successful strategy. These tools are great for targeting niche audiences as you so well know.
I fully agree that great content doesn’t open doors automatically. It took almost 2 years to establish this business and most of that was promoting it whenever, wherever and however I could. Seems to be paying off.
I think that a lot of whiners who think you’ve sold out if you’re financially successful are just plain jealous. I care about my audience. If I didn’t I not only wouldn’t have one, I wouldn’t have sponsors and advertisers. I can’t tell you how many great comments and emails I get from people in the industry who are glad we’re “making it.” That alone gives me incentive to keep going but something has to pay the bills.
Sorry for the long comment but your post struck a nerve. I’m interested to see what others have to say.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Thanks for the comment, Chuck. Your point about being very targeted on a specific audience is true. Trying to compete with a “general” blog is a losing battle. Great to hear you’re having success!
Tim
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:32 pm
[...] most recent post struck a nerve and I posted a comment on it. I thought I’d point you to it and won’t post it here. One sentence in his post struck a real nerve with me and is probably [...]
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Hi Tim,
I don’t think this phenomenon is unique to New Media.
The way I see it, New Media is actually doing quite well considering many of us are, in the scheme of things, small and young enterprises. The medium we practice is, paradoxically, causing increased competition. Small New Media companies can’t survive on the storefront model and need to constantly re-invent their marketing tactics.
As the most traditional information mediums (Newspapers are at the head of the list) struggle to just slow their loss of subscribers, New Media companies are slowly gaining monetary momentum. It’s true that not always the ‘best’ New Media Entrepenuers will get their slice of the pie and that is unfortunate. I think the enterprises that latch onto ingenuity and keep knocking on doors are going to come out on top.
Unfortunately, the most talented artist or strongest athlete is not always rewarded for their efforts.
There are no ’sure things’, but good old persistance, patience, ingenuity and a bit of luck go a long way towards stacking our odds in the right direction.
As we look towards the future, I predict a much brighter future for New Media than old. As for talent, we cannot wait to be discovered. We must present, explain and sell our unique expertise. The ‘buyers’ are out there and we must seek them out.
Best Regards,
Mark
podsqod.com
April 3rd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Tim,
It seems that there is a bit of a meme developing. Effective monetization has yet to trickle down and in some cases never really even started. Sure there are plenty of people saying it is just round the corner but they have said that since the beginning and I have yet to even see the real “bend in the road” approaching. Some of us have been able to make a success of it, but I worry that it is so far and few between that the medium will not truly develop if more opportunity is not present for others. Catch 22 of course, whose responsibility is it? It is a case where the creative/technical side has developed rapidly but those who made a goal to support these efforts on the business side, i.e. ad broker/networks etc have simply failed. Hopefully they can turn it around. I do find it interesting that if you look at podcasting and videocasting many of the real success stories, ie. pay your mortgage put your kids through school kinds of stories are from those that jumped to VC funded companies or traditional media. Nothing new or ground breaking there. How ironic if the goal of “new media” is to get a job in traditional media.
I posted some thoughts along these lines last month: Podcasting It’s a Community Not an Industry
April 3rd, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Tim
Although some Genres in the New Media Space have had trouble getting advertisers others have not. I can say with some confidence that their are quite a few of not so famous people in the space earning 6 figures a year. While not everyone will achieve that level of income we have to be realistic that not all shows can reach that level or earnings.
One dynamic that we are seeing as well is that their are new media creators that are earning full time wages while still working a full time job. They are able to double dip per say, and want to keep the fact that they are earning high 5 and medium 6 figure incomes private so as not to run into trouble with their employers. Hopefully someday these media creators will be willing to publicly speak about their new media earnings.
My company has worked hard to help podcasters earn a decent income, and feel that from our side of the fence those shows that are engaging audiences are earning significant dollars each month its not just the size of a show that counts. Some shows with smaller audiences are earning more on CPA and Flat Rate sponsorships than those on straight CPM. While the medium earnings may not be as high as some media creators would want their continues to be huge potential as more companies realize the value of the space.
I disagree with Michael above in him saying broker networks have failed, RawVoice has continued to sign substantial deals each quarter, and have 10’s of millions of downloads in play each month on a variety of buy types. I can say that we are putting very significant dollars into podcasters pockets monthly.
Todd Cochrane
CEO Rawvoice
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Posted by Tim Bourquin: “I hope it’s one of the many conversations we can all have at the Expo this August.”
Unfortunately, I’m too “dirt poor” to attend your new, more upscale conference in Las Vegas. (Not only that, but Vegas in August? Brutally hot!) At least in Ontario there were nearby places to camp.
Michael Geoghegan Says: “How ironic if the goal of ‘new media’ is to get a job in traditional media.”
I suspect that for the kind of media producers for whom their content is their main product, this IS their only realistic hope for now.
And Tim, selling out isn’t simply getting financially compensated for what you do. It’s significantly compromising your vision, mission, or ideals to get that compensation.
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Great to meet you Tim. I am reading this post because Todd twittered it ironically. And I think the conventional view on this is somewhat skewed. Here’s the piece that gets lost: it just so happens that in traditional media, you begin to build your career and your income as you build your name. In new media, you often have to build your name before you build your income, because it’s an entreprenuerial endeavor. No one knew who Donald Trump was until he got rich, but online, it’s the other way around — to even have a prayer of getting rich, you and your brand had Better be famous first.
And no, not everyone is going to make a six figure income from new media directly. But not everyone is going to want to broadcast their status when they do. I don’t make my good money from blogging, podcasting or any of those things. The best money I ever make online is from paid content. And more often than not, some blogs are better used as bait for the really good stuff if money is what one is actually after.
On the one hand, what I consider spare change could be a fortune to someone else– if one ends up with only $1500 a month, working a few hours a week, that’s not exactly dirt poor when you look at it based on how much they’re making per hour, and the lifestyle they enjoy in so doing.
At the end of the day though, it can’t be all about the money. Ironically that is the fastest way Not to be successful from creating content.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Hey Tim,
Monetization is something I’ve dreamed about for a long time (Mister Ron’s Basement has been podcasting since March of 2005 — 1,026 episodes so far!). I average well over 3000 downloads a day, often many more. But the subject of my podcasts — public domain humorous stories by long-forgotten American authors — is perhaps a bit esoteric to fit a natural advertising niche. Putting an ad in the latest episode will not bring in heavy numbers, but long-term advertising will. Old episodes get downloaded as much or more often than new ones.
One problem is the time and effort involved in researching and recording these things leaves little time for scouting out ads — my one attempt at working with an podcast ad agency who tried to sell interstatials was a miserable failure, but I think that one agency was trying to sell podcasts in general, not particularly mine. Well, I’ll just continue doing what I’m doing, and probably will have to raise revenue through traditional media, such as a book I’m working on.
On the one hand, podcasting makes room for niche players like Mister Ron’s Basement, but the numbers I’m getting (pretty large for a podcast, I am told) are insignificant compared to a small town radio station’s.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:14 pm
I almost laughed when I saw the title of this blog post. I am literally packing up my car to move back into it, just so that I can afford a place to live in San Francisco. I plan on being in my car for about 1-2 months and before I moved out to San Francisco was living in my car for around a year in Florida.
I have been to all of the expos, and am friends with countless people in the New Media realm. Hell there was even a front page story in the St. Petersburg Times where I was referred to as the “face of new media,” yet as you said, sometimes there seems you just can’t find a way to monetize it.
Life sucks but sometimes there are huge obstacles standing in the way of your goals. I moved out here to be near the tech sector, to be more plugged in and involved, which I am glad to say I am and glad that I moved, but sometimes you just can’t get ahead in your personal life.
Thanks for writing the post.
Nick Starr
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Well Tim, you’ve finally gotten me to comment. I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of years, and it seems to me that the Big Media companies are simply waiting for all this content to be available so that they can cash in on it. Or, if they don’t care about the user-generated content, they’ll simply keep pushing their own while the ‘Net famous get poorer and, eventually, too exasperated and exhausted from being able to figure out how to make money.
This isn’t what I *want* to see, and I’m not certain it’s inevitable. There are a few who *have* made some money producing content, some directly and some laterally (i.e., their podcasts helped promote their consulting services, such as in the case of Croncast). Yet the vast majority have simply created new revenue streams for Guitar Center and its ilk. (Nothing that I have anything against GC.) It seems that the best business to have been in these past few years has been in the microphone manufacturing/distribution industry.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I see that I left out a key term in the third sentence of my previous comment. I meant to type, “too exasperated and exhausted from NOT being able to figure out how to make money.”
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:25 pm
One more thing I must add: All is not lost! Those that *do* somehow manage to keep plodding away may one day find some success. It’s simply incredibly difficult to keep spending your hard-earned money on upgrading all the tools you need in order to maintain your podcasts and other new media productions. Still: If you can somehow manage to keep this going, if you’re somehow able to find the endurance (which I haven’t been able to), then you *may* one day be one of the few who will be able to compete alongside the Big Media moneybags. So keep the faith if you can. Once I can afford to, I may be back in the game again. You never know.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:39 pm
funny, did you happen to see south park last night? if not, go check out out ‘canada’s on strike’ over at southparkstudios.com because there’s a side theme about internet-famous folks earning “theoretical millions” and of course the final moral of the story is about the non-existent monetization of internet content.
its a problem, and one that will be tough to solve. folks are used to gorging themselves on free content online and it will be a very tough assumption to change. have you heard about the proposed music download tax? another tough sell. we’re lucky to have kids paying for digital music and movies as is, adding a tax to that will outrage many.
i’m not sure why people think music and video should be free since it takes money to create these forms of art, but that seems to be current public sentiment.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Boy, didn’t I live through this over 2007. LOTS of people with reasonably decent Internet video shows had to go back to a day job to pay bills when the flood of cash didn’t flow into the universe the way we thought it might.
I’ve bounced back and forth between a little too poor and “Hey neato! I just made some money” over the last 24 months, myself. For me, it’s forever that interesting razor’s edge that bleeders find themselves on.
My take at present: there are ways to get the money, but it’s not producing an awesome blog or podcast and waiting for the money to show up. It’s developing products and services around your media making that convert to a business.
Michael isn’t rich off Grape Radio. He’s doing lots of content deals, education, and all kinds of other surrounding products to make that happen. Gary Vaynerchuk, at the end of the day, sells wine. Christopher Penn sells student loans. The folks who can swing the event tickets (and they are worth paying for!) are those who’ve constructed a business that uses media as a medium, and not as a cash pointer.
My personal efforts have been in helping businesses understand what comes next, and how this jigsaw all comes together. At the same time, I use the tools to stay connected to people, because I’ve built a lot of relationships that are worth preserving.
What a thoughtful post and a great conversation starter, Tim. See you in August!
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Tim,
New here! I just came across this as Chris Brogen posted it in Twitter. I see quite a few people in the media world who are barely making it… or are doing it part-time.. and everyone thinks they are millionaires. At the end of the day, its about what Chris just said… “developing products and services around your media making”.
Great post and great blog!
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
I have more to add on this subject; I really have been thinking about it for some time. I understand Michael’s comments regarding the perceived irony of New Media producers ending up seeking Traditional Media empolyment. What I mean is, it *would* be ironic, if the goal for New Media producers has become landing jobs in Traditional Media, but how many of us have truly ever been opposed to that goal? From the start, most podcasters have been seeking a traditional, commercial path for their podcasts and other New Media endeavors. All the projects pursued have been taken directly out of the Traditional Media playbook: the monetization networks, the deals with established companies like Disney (sorry, Michael, no offense) — even the way most podcasts are produced are transparent attempts at duplicating traditional radio and television broadcasts.
Yes, there are the few, the admirable: the Dave Slushers who never intended to make any money producing podcasts (or at least claim such). There are the Dave Winers who’ve already made their millions in peripheral projects, such as programming the aggregators (or as, in Dave’s case, the site that displays all the feeds that the aggregators capture). There are the folks like me who never made any effort at making money because they simply cared about producing the best content they could. (The latter was the group I fell into, but the fact that I wasn’t making any money combined with my own failure to find other employment eventually resulted in my departure from podcasting.) These examples stand out and are admired in a similar way to the goals of the Free Software movement, but like Linux, they aren’t really gaining much ground on any desktops. Nobody in the mainstream cares about those podcasters (which included myself, at one time).
Dangit, I want to make a living do this, and my goal just may be to break into Traditional Media via this route. Anyone who calls me a sellout for doing that can simply get off their ethical high horse and head back to their cubicles to keep answering the sales calls for whichever big corporation *they’re* slaving away for. We’re all selling something, like it or not, and some of us are trying a bit harder to make that dollar by doing something we enjoy, rather than accepting that we have to live out our lives complaining about The Office. If that means that we may end up working in what many consider a Traditional Media outlet, so be it. It doesn’t make us Walmart. Nobody has the right to point the finger and call you a sellout; everybody’s sold out, even Mom & Pop, who invested in stocks and ended up winning a little money that way while whoever was on the other end of that transaction lost some money. Are Mom & Pop guilty of wrongdoing? Maybe; aren’t we all? Who’s to call who wrong?
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:11 pm
First and foremost, Tim, being “famous” in media has never meant being wealthy. In fact, in the days when radio and television news was really “news,” those who wrote, produced and presented the information were decidedly middle class citizens. Their subsequent “fame” was merely a gratuity that perhaps got them a free dinner.
Somewhere along the line, media took those “gratuities” and made them a business model. Stars demanded exorbitant monies for public appearances, the networks took a cut. “Stars” got rich and greedy and the networks got rich, too.
But you have to remember that producing a radio program was incomprehensibly expensive back then. Producing video was easily 4 times as expensive as radio! The first video tape machines, built in the late 50’s-early 60’s were more than $20,000. I will not pretend to estimate those dollars in today’s currency equivalent. So, the “network” had to have financing available. They built a market called “advertising.”
With only 3-6 outlets for talent, selling advertising was easy. A mindful network was certain to cater to these advertisers as their existence relied on the revenue. Back then, the model worked.
Today, anyone can create a podcast. Or a streaming site. All is well and good except that a computer, a microphone and some ideas do not equate to mass acceptance. And while the “grass roots” approach of podcasting appeals to me and many others, podcasters can not expect advertisers to invest in a product of questionable quality picked from a sea of 40,000 options.
Artists have been famous and dirt poor for eons. Only recently has being the “face of media” meant financial windfall. So, we are podcasters. How do we react to the truth that we have the power of content without the power of giant media conglomerates?
1) Forget the money. You podcast because you are passionate about your subject. Should your quality of content and production be good enough, money WILL find you. “Big Media” is listening/watching–if you have enough traction.
2) Market yourself not to aggregate groups but to individuals. Start small. Start focused. Your production is centric around something. Go to those businesses and market yourself directly. You will gain listeners and endear yourself to the person/company paying you.
3) Strive to make the best sounding/looking product you can. We all love the “everyman” approach to podcasting but the person behind the checkbook does not. For example, I love the content of both “Engadget” podcasts and “Podcast 411″ (when they post these days). I really do! But the sound quality and volume level is such that as an advertiser, I would never consider them. Advertisers are used to high-dollar production values.
4) Take every dollar you can. The podcasting “craze” is quickly getting saturated by big media. Most of the top podcasts are not podcasts at all, they are re-purposed, re-packaged big media productions. And “big media” is getting paid to basically vomit their content on another channel. We have to stand out. Offer more. We have to work harder, be more “on point”–or creative than the pablum, the fat, surrounding our arteries. We have to be BETTER than mass media in all respects. Meanwhile, if someone will pay you to put a spot in your show, by all means take it! Pennies add up to dollars. Those making “big” money figured this out a while ago.
I guess the bottom line is that podcasting, while it is being diluted by mass media, offers value to advertisers who will want to pay you IF you can provide content that will ultimately pay them back. To convince the “wallets” of this empire, you must prove that you are a professional. Prove you can offer not only numbers (of listeners) but also the quality of listeners they expect.
You also have to remember that most “famous” artists die poor. You get famous when you are dead. If you are the Internet darling of the moment, enjoy the spotlight. It will not last. Longevity comes of hard work and persistence. And sometimes that even fails.
Money and podcasting are strange bedfellows. Who pays us here at the RadioChaos plantation? How much do we make and how? The answer, which I will not divulge, would surprise you.
But at the end of the day, producing a good podcast costs very little. Advertisers know this so they are going to “low ball” you every time. So how does someone with the equipment and talent to make industry-standard sounding/looking material make money outside of advertising?
Hmmmmmm……….
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:20 pm
To successfully transcend from internet fame to a sustainable, more ‘mainstream’ fame, it’s quite possible that it requires efforts which mimic capital B big media– something that challenges the core ideology which helped podcasting grow from the ground up.
Second thought, semi-relevant: Are the big media brands having success with podcasting because of this new format, or because they still have an amazing reach across more than just one single medium?
I don’t necessarily want to believe these ideas, yet, watching those who are able to escape this problem are the ones who possibly followed the old media model (with minor reinvention of course).
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Before there was “Internet currency”, there was “social currency” … and “popular” people rarely made money from those they amused or entertained. Having a microphone and links doesn’t change that dynamic, but it does magnify it.
I think it’s all very Darwinian. Commercialization is nature’s way of thinning the podcast herd. For better or worse, business savvy podcasters will be the best equipped to avoid extinction in the innovation age that we live in. Podcasters need to accept that fact or trade in their podcast gear for a ham radio. I hear it’s commercial free.
Dan Safkow
http://www.LogoYourAudio.com
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:19 pm
NOLA Trey is right, and I’d like to step back a few decades more to the dawn of radio. I’ve got a recording around here of one of the first radio performers talking about how little they were paid when they had sponsors, and how they weren’t paid at all when the didn’t.
The big difference is that the transmitters used to be owned by Westinghouse and AT&T, and you couldn’t broadcast without them. Big media has used its power to, with the government’s help, buy up all the competition in the last few decades of consolidation. But the weakness of the Clear Channel buyout and the dim future for newspapers tells me that the media landscape may soon become much more diverse, thanks to some unfortunate fire sales.
That means that there will be little outlets again and some of the new mom-and-pop-shops will look outside the old big corporate structure for content and help with content. Fasten your seat belts. Its going to be bumpy for a while, but the world tomorrow is going to be a nice place for independents.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Hi Tim, an interesting point you make here, however I think there are paralels with being in a band. Lots of people are percieved as famous and therefore wealthy by having some success within the music industry but this is often very far from the truth. Many bands are now marketing themselves almost by almost following the vanity publishing route, by selling access to their special material, gigs or whatever to fund the next recording. But simillarly, the leap requires the change in the relationship with the audience - to move from “it’s free, I like doing it” - to “I need to make a living, pay me” is the hardest part. I think it’s akin to what they call the innovators dilemma.
You have talked on the subject of moving to a paid model on several occasions, and I’m sure many of us would love to - but the leap of faith is often too great - our podcast is part of a whole range of output we have for the site, which covers regular html, video and podcasting. We fund the rest of our stuff through advertising - I think this is the key, our audiences are just way to used to not paying for content - although I suppose if you take the regular TV model they sort of do, but not necessarily for specific content, more access to a genre or channel set. So maybe as content creators we need to gravitate into groups that can then charge for a general access and split the revenue that way.. hmmmmm
As far as selling out, this is always the case - when I was a struggling musician and got lucky with a record, I was accused of the same thing - but aren’t we all aspiring to actually make a living for doing what we love?
April 4th, 2008 at 1:56 am
As CEO of an Integrated Marketing Communication Company and Digital Entertainment Company, producing (and produced) several Digital Shows. By localizing digital content and reaching out to other short-form media format, a content provider can create wealth & success from local and regional distribution. While trying to reach a large “youtuber” audience, you will get lost in the 30 sec “cat & ball” video. Build the Brand & Content to reach a smaller local but loyal audience, reach out to sponsors with opportunity of consumer engagement. Once regularly funding is gathered, use it to further the brand with cross-promotion to up the viewer/listener numbers. This media is hobby listener & viewer market with a buzz builder format, even with Ipods and Iphones. Even major networks are having a hard time with transition - quarterlife.
Bring it Home, then Hit a Homer!
Thanks for reading & continue doing what you love! ALWAYS!
Aaron B. Wheeler
Sunny Mountain Media Group
abw@smmediagroup.com
April 4th, 2008 at 3:26 am
Tim,
Great post. Thought provoking, and something which is on everyone’s mind although few talk openly about it.
You, and the other people commenting here, speak from the viewpoint of the producers of content. I’d like to chime in from the other corner. As a “tool-maker” for the new media industry, I have put forth an immeasurable amount of sweat equity and at least 12,000 hours of my time. I used to joke that I had several sponsors, such as Visa and MasterCard, yet the reality of today is one where I now have 13 maxed out credit cards, and no way to make ends meet.
I got caught up in the same blind passion that a number of content producers did, in that if you keep doing what you are doing, the right people will come along and the effort will have all been worthwhile.
Look at the number of video and audio hosting sites, all wanting “YOU” to use their service. A good number of them are free, and they are all hoping to attract a large enough base so that they generate enormous traffic and can then sell ads on their site. Nothing wrong with that business model, except that everyone else is doing the same thing, and the finite amount of “enormous traffic” split among an ever expanding list of services is impossible.
Many unique start-ups are ending up in the “deadpool” for a few simple reasons. They cannot charge for their service because their target member audience doesn’t have the money to spend on yet another service. They cannot charge for service because the impression is that one must remain “free” if they intent to gain members and traffic.
I’m constantly torn now, on how I actually feel about the new media space. Some days I still love to dream about its potential but other days the reality sets in and I see that, at the end of the day, there isn’t any money here and if one is trying to make an actual living it is best to keep the day job.
By the way, I too cannot afford to attend the convention in Vegas (I did attent the last 2 events in Ontario, great job!).
Michael Bailey
Currently jobless, sometimes passionate, always thinking.
April 4th, 2008 at 3:32 am
I can answer that in one word: Product.
April 4th, 2008 at 3:36 am
Tim,
A controversial topic, of course. But if we look at those who are successful in making their livings 100 per cent by delivering value to their clients and customers, we see that there are different models that can be used–and they ALL require marketing and sales to survive. We can take this beyond typical online or internet marketing (where you need to have multiple revenue streams and not rely on any single one) to the area of PODCASTING, where the podcasting services ARE the business.
In my podcast series of THE STRUGGLING ENTREPRENEUR (at http://www.strugglingentrepreneur.com), I have interviewed some who have make their living totally from Podcasting or Online/Internet Marketing–using either JUST podcast services as their main revenue source or combining multiple revenue streams with other book deals, affiliate marketing commissions, training, etc.
The common thread for these success stories is the same–understanding marketing and sales and implementing campaigns and prospecting, delivering value to your customers and audiences, and a relentless pursuit to research and pilot your market (or “dabble,” as it is referred to).
Even today’s large corporations owe their success to marketing and sales–because there are more nimble start-ups with better products who “built it” hoping that the customers would come. Not so. Marketing and Sales are just as important, even to New Media.
I know of one such example of a business that drove their customers to the revenue-making offerings they have from their podcasts–and now, they are growing with their success. And, yes, they have dedicated themselves as partners in their full-time venture, where the podcast is still the driving force, but where the revenue streams come from other offerings and events.
I guess my bottom line is: yes, it is possible, but it is not automatic. A good business model that includes expert marketing and sales with a proven track record and successful “dabbling” may be the formula. It is definitely what I have seen to be the case in THE STRUGGLING ENTREPRENEUR.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:58 am
I hope you don’t have lots of discussions in Las Vegas about how to use the internet to make money. If you’re lucky there will be many more conversations about business fundamentals, how to build communities and how to add value. This whole, “How do I get rich and famous on the internet” meme puts the cart before the horse.
It’s apropos that the next expo will be in Vegas Tim. Because it seems that your curriculum is more suited to dice rollers and get-rich quickers than it is for people who want to build successful and lasting businesses using the internet.
April 4th, 2008 at 5:43 am
Tim,
This is one of the BEST subject lines and topics of discussion I’ve seen in a very long time. What a brain-bending way to start my day…thank you!
This very subject has been on my mind quite a bit lately, which is why I’ve positioned my upcoming Webinar “Social Media Success” to include more case studies showing people who are actually MAKING MONEY on Facebook, LinkedIn and Myspace. There is way too much clutter out there about building a following, and growing traffic, but if you can’t afford to keep the lights on, what’s the point?
Even the URL for my event reflects this thinking: http://www.SocialMediaMONEY.com
Thanks for fantastic post!
April 4th, 2008 at 6:03 am
I have to differ on many of the opinions expressed here. We live in a world where technology makes all things possible. How wonderful is that? We forget that only a few years ago you needed to buy or rent very expensive 16mm or 35mm cameras, film and developing to make a movie. It was an extremely difficult task to be a filmmaker back then. Only a very few had the drive and good luck to succeed.
Today a high def camera can be bought together with an Apple Mac and Final Cut Pro digital video editing software plus Adobe After Effects motion graphics and compositing software. They can be used to create just about anything you can imagine. I won’t even mention the wonderful 3D tools out there for a future Walt Disney.
Speaking of which… Walt Disney was rejected by over 300 banks when he requested financing for DisneyLand. George Lucas shopped his Star Wars scripts to the major studios and was barely able to get FOX to accept it. (And this was after his huge American Graffiti hit)
It is not that being successful or famous will guarantee an easy road to publishing, fame or fortune, the miracle is it is how easy it is to produce your own content.
If you are the next Walt Disney or George Lucas or even some new wave filmmaker or podcaster you will succeed by being creative, imaginative and driven.
Technology is only a tool to allow creativity to flourish. It is not a promise of success. Fortune and fame have never been a guarantee in the entertainment and information broadcasting industry. Create because you love what you do. Yes, seek out compensation and market yourself and your product aggressively, but never lose sight of why you publish.
April 4th, 2008 at 6:51 am
Great post and terrific and insightful comments. Clearly you have a brilliant listenership Tim.!
I’ve been producing a podcast for 3 years now and have had 500-1000 listeners consistently depending on which service stats you believe. It doesn’t shrink and it doesn’t grow. It’s not tiny nor is it huge. I consider myself lucky and honored to have an audience that have enjoyed what we do over the years.
Being around awhile I have to make the following observation. Podcasting is fun. Video production is fun. Radio is fun. Music production (I also do that) is fun. People WANT to do these things. They want to do these so much, in fact, that they will do them in their leisure time. It’s a different dynamic than say, accounting. People will only do that for money. (I apologize to the accountants out there - but you get my point).
I think I heard this on Podcast Brothers once but it was something that I really agree with. I think, at least for right now, offering new media is a great way to supplement and market your existing businesses.
But give me a great podcast or blog - say Scobleizer or TWIT for the techies. If they started charging for their content it would be so easy (even though they are very very good) to find free alternatives. Why? Because, for creative and egotistical reasons, people love creating new media and having people experience it. And the costs of producing new media as mentioned in some of the comments previously has skyrocketed downwards. Anyone with a decent day job and drive can afford and learn how to use quality equipment.
As an avid consumer of new media, I love this dynamic and believe that 95% of the amateur new media created out there will and should be consumed by us all as part of a new society fabric. A new way that we communicate with each other. A new way that we learn from each other. And, perhaps, a new way that we inspire each other as well.
No doubt, there will be some podcasts and blogs that make some money via advertising because of their tremendous popularity. No doubt, some talented podcasters and bloggers will be hired by larger companies who will pay them salaries on par with radio personalties and journalists. And it’s all good.
People who are “internet famous” can leverage that fame into their careers, I have no doubt about it. Is it about making money through their famous blog, podcast, or great twitters. I don’t know. I kind of doubt it - maybe some can. Can they use that fame as a calling card to some greater opportunities for themselves in their real careers? I’ll bet the more inspired and creative ones can, do and will.
If people twitter all day “can’t pay their bills at the end of the month”, is that new media’s fault, or is that poor career planning?
Thanks for all the great work you guys do!
April 4th, 2008 at 7:10 am
@Harold: Thanks for the comments Harold. I remember you were one of the first folks on the Yahoo podcasters board - good to hear that although you’re not currently podcasting, that it’s still on your mind and want to get back into the game. Even if you can only put out a show once every couple of months, I say go for it.
@RobSafuto: Rob you won’t see “get rich quick” anywhere in the conference program. If you think discussing sponsorship or other means of monetization and growing an audience is not critical to long-term growth in the business I don’t know what to tell you.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:29 am
Tim -
As other posters have noted, it takes time for a new medium (and podcasting is still very new) to figure out how to monetize itself. I’d like to point out the work of the ADM - the Association for Downloadable Media - which is working towards establishing standards that could make podcasts an easier sell to potential advertisers. It’s also looking for other useful models that could help podcasters actually make a living. Please check out http://www.downloadablemedia.org . ADM plans to unveil an initial draft 10 days from now at ad:tech San Francisco, and I’m sure a lot of members will be onhand for the NME in Las Vegas in August, self included.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:30 am
Great post Tim!
Trey hit on it, and Nick touched on it as well. I will begin to play the broken record I have been playing for a couple of years now. We are at the beginning of this “new media” thing. Of course very few are getting rich. (quite a large number are making some kind of money) . Most people in this “industry” don’t even realize they are in an industry. Most of them are just hobbyists with no real aspirations to grow beyond that (like Nick’s analogy to bands).
As Trey pointed out when radio first came along DJ’s weren’t rich, very few musicians were rich in the early days either. Actors weren’t rich when movies first came long. Athletes certainly weren’t. Sure they might have been famous but they were lucky to eek out a living. Sound familiar?
My comment got so long that I put my own post up here: http://www.blogworldexpo.com/blog/2008/04/04/new-media-rich/
Again great thought provoking post Tim!
April 4th, 2008 at 8:48 am
Trey McCay (NOLA Trey) Says:”But at the end of the day, producing a good podcast costs very little. Advertisers know this so they are going to “low ball” you every time.”
That’s where I disagree. Producing a good podcast is every bit as expensive, especially in time, as producing a great mainstream public radio show. Every minute “on the air” takes hours of research, preparation, traveling for interviews, transcribing and editing, scripting mixing and other production.
Nobody I take seriously has any delusions of getting rich. Most of us are just trying to not go so broke that we can’t keep doing this.
Fred Castaneda Says: “Even today’s large corporations owe their success to marketing and sales–because there are more nimble start-ups with better products who ‘built it’ hoping that the customers would come. Not so. Marketing and Sales are just as important, even to New Media.”
So this is your explanation why so many amazing, brilliant ideas fail, and so many lame ideas become mainstream successes?
April 4th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Hi Tim, Ed with Latino Weekly Review. Here is my commentario. I believe that a pair of issues arise when talking about this subject. 1. Value and 2. Benefit.
Think of it this way. When you walk into a jewelry store seeking to purchase something that has quality and possesses value. The value is dependent on the benefits and the way it moves you. If it makes you feel good and if it is priced right you will buy it.
Many people utilizing podcasts basically believe that all they need is a mic and an opinion. Is that enough? That’s like having a 50 percent off jewelry sale. What is the real price of the jewelry. Is it $1,000 or $500? The same with podcats. Are they “free” or are they more valuable. Is the person an expert in the genre or a self appointed guru? Does the audience have an active role, or are they sheep?
I publish and I advertise. Both are important to my online publication. I must develop business partnerships by delivering the value and the benefit of our publication. Likewise, my alliances should possess the same value and benefits for us.
We currently have dozens and hundreds of “one-on-one” interviews (video and mp3) with affluent Hollywood personalities. Pull the trigger? Not so fast. Patience is a learned behavior. The benefits have been established. The hype is there, but the value is not perceived — yet.
The podcast on it’s own is cool and possesses freedom of expression at it’s core. The podcast is anti-establishment. APPLE, Inc. has made it so easy that a teenager can do it. These characteristics are simply not enough. Personalities that are making money with their podcasts have something valuable and have developed great benefits. I’m certain their podcasts are impeccable and if you look even closer, the podcaster has added more value by integrating other benefits that “advertisers” demand.
I use to publish someone else’s magazine (undisclosed), and I would walk in each morning and find the CEO counting how many times he saw the company’s name in print (Journals and Newspapers). Good or bad, he counted. Then he would look up at me and say. “Good job.” I wouldn’t say a word and go do what I did best. Tell people of the value and benefits of the company through the web, lunches, phone and print.
Tim, I like one thing most about this topic that you have opened up for discussion. You are not just taking advantage of the benefit of talking, but listening as well. That is valuable.
Podcasters, hype delivers a quick buck. Wealth comes only after your hard work and perseverance have produced the offspring of value and benefit.
Sinceramente,
Ed Madinya
elatinoweekly.com
April 4th, 2008 at 8:55 am
Like all things, there are those people that are going to be able to take an idea and run with it to turn it in to a paying business. This is not easy to do and just does not fit some people’s interests, ability, or demeanor.
This is like the Hollywood myth: I will go out to Hollywood and get an acting job and become famous. The starry eyed person soon discovers there are many people wanting the same thing and those that do “well” financially have done a lot of hard work selling/marketing themselves.
This is also like the small business myth: I have a great idea and all I have to do is make it and the money will flow in. The small business entrepreneur soon learns that having a “great idea” is not enough. This is why many great ideas go no where; the drive to create a concept, sell it, marketing it, following up on opportunities, etc is not in their blood or not well understood.
But not to discourage! Having an idea is the first step; Learn about creating that concept into a viable paying opportunity. Great resources are the NxLeveL Entrepreneurial Training Programs http://www.nxlevel.org/ . I have used the material from this organization on many occasions to help Truffle Media Networks build out and focus on its core podcast series (SwineCast.com, BeefCast.com, DairyCast.com, PoultryCast.com, and CropVillage.com); focused shows in the Ag industry. The NxLevel material requires study, use, and action; just reading the material does nothing.
Thanks for the post!
April 4th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Tim, thanks for the reference. Flying yesterday otherwise would have replied sooner. ;-)
As for the balance between “attention” and “profit” lacking in New Media, spot on. Too many people buy into the dream of riches through “internet marketing,” or the mistaken belief that “fame” through New Media will automatically bring riches.
Instead of creating a business based on providing value to a Tribe, they look to turn a medium into a money source in and of itself.
Chris Brogan made a good point that the successful “are those who’ve constructed a business that uses media as a medium, and not as a cash pointer.” But I think it’s even more than that.
New Media, the internet, radio… heck, any media is nothing more than a channel. A channel is a conduit through which content, attention, and connection flow.
But what makes money is what sits on both ends of that channel. Your Tribe on one end, and the products/services that will make their life better on the other. How good your strategy and execution is in using the channel to emotionally connect with your Tribe is what determines how much money is to be made.
Fall for the trash that internet marketing gurus pimp or Social Media proselytizers preach and you’re int trouble. Entrepreneurs and small business owners can get rich using New Media… but only as a channel.
Thanks again Tim. ;-)
April 4th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Thanks for the comment John - great blog by the way - I’m subscribed now!
April 4th, 2008 at 10:34 am
If it’s any indication of the timeliness of this post, in this week’s South Park, several Internet stars were featured trying to receive money for number of plays on YouTube and essentially becoming famous. Of course, they get none, and at the end of the episode, Kyle says:
“I learned something today. We thought we could make money on the Internet. But, while the Internet is new and exciting for creative people, it hasn’t matured as a distribution mechanism to the extent that one should trade real and immediate opportunities for income for the promise of future online revenue. It will be a few years before digital distribution of media on the Internet can be monetized to the extent that necessitates content producers to forgo their fair value and more traditional media.”
The episode features Chocolate Rain, Sneezing Panda, Star Wars Kid, Afro Ninja, Chris - Leave Brittney Alone, Tron Guy, etc.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Hello Tim.
It would be nice if people could achieve some balance on their views on the issue of blogging/podcasting and making money from these things. You have those on one hand who look at this as a way to make money off of others without giving something of real value their the audience and you have those on the other end of the pendulum that yell: “Sell out!” to those who are able to make a living.
I agree with Steve. Creating a podcast or even a quality blog may not take millions of dollars (and is it really necessary to get rich anyway?) but it take tremendous amounts of time and energy to produce blogs and podcasts of any quality. That’s time that could be spent making money elsewhere. Some of my favorite podcasters are starting to charge for premium content and I support that kind of idea 100%! I may very well end up doing that in the future. After all, if you offer something special or unique for your audience you should be compensated for it.
Terrestrial radio and commercial TV are supported by advertising, NPR asks for money through pledge drives; I don’t see why a good podcaster can’t use this route to support her/his shows if they are worth it.
April 4th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Hi,
I myself never thought of it this way. I would assume everyone is entitled to make some money and take care of their family and in economics unless one is making something there is no way he will continue doing what he is doing and yet not make any money. He will surely switch professions. I cannot really believe that people will blog at a loss, no way! Might be they are making less money than they can make, but then again not everyone is geared towards marketing themselves. Some of us do blog for the joy of blogging. What say?
moserw
http://www.nela.in
April 4th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Good discussion. I wrestle with the same question every day as I mold a broad mix of media efforts, including ‘podcasting’ into my mix for clients. A couple of comments, mostly in support of the variety of comments you’ve already received…
1. Podcasting is not yet understood by the average businessperson. The name/moniker was always an issue, and in my experience the general business folk (potential clients or sponsors) were and ARE confused about what the heck a podcast really is.
2. Mirroring one post, it really is, in many ways, like being in a band. First, you gotta live it, love it, and believe in yourself in order to keep on going. Next, there will always be other people getting the attention you had hoped to get. That doesn’t mean you should stop.
3. As a media-focused person for life, with a broad music, radio, TV and film background (on a small scale), it appears to me that podcasting and ‘new media’ are just part of an ongoing evolution. I have friends in the ‘old’ music business that are now trying to re-figure out how to make money, because the rules have ALL changed. Filmmakers who had scholling and training in the old ways, are trying to figure out how to output flv and mp4 files. On and on. Ultimately, the new media, and specifically, podcasting, is all part of the NEW MIX. The big guys have the power to jump on it, and we small fish should be ready to provide - service AND content.
4. The posts on focus and narrow attention to a specific market seem to me to be the most important. I have had the good fortune of being able to convert a very old medium (the ski resort snow report) to a viable podcast endeavor, which clients WANT to participate in. It is professional, viable, current, and valuable to the listener. Content is only king if it MATTERS to someone, no matter how large or small the audience.
I hope to attend the Vegas conference this year, after watching from the wings. It’s not the venue, it’s the MESSAGE!!
Cheers all,
Eric
April 4th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Hey Tim, just had to stop back with a note of added thanks. The conversation you started here inspired me to polish up an article I’ve been dying to publish for months. Even put words in your mouth toward the end. :)
http://tribalseduction.com/newmedia/marketinginnewmediaoz-wickedwitches/
April 5th, 2008 at 4:51 am
[...] Read this excellent discussion in the context of having watched this clip. Via Chris Brogan on [...]
April 5th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
[...] Internet Famous, Dirt Poor by Webernetting.com addthis_url = ‘http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jonathancoffman.com%2Fblog%2Fdel.icio.us-saved-links%2Flinks-for-2008-04-05.php’; addthis_title = ‘links+for+2008-04-05′; addthis_pub = ‘jdcoffman’; [...]
April 6th, 2008 at 10:03 am
One of the Trackbacks above links to a video that goes to the heart of this entire matter: http://www.realcentralva.com/2008/04/04/the-social-internet/
Check it out! Maybe I should invite this guy to keynote the Expo.
Tim
April 6th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Nearly 3 years now, I’ve been doing my little show. The occasional sponsorship deal for a few shows and listener donations here and there have all been nice, but never really put me where I hoped (not initially, but after a while) podcasting could…financially.
Aside from a few folks with deals from this company or that company, or the few who have take the route of charging subscription fees for premium content (Dan Klass, as an example…and yes, I am a premium subscriber to his show), there just doesn’t seem to be the “real world” interest in advertising on blogs or podcasts. Oddly, though, you can flip through your cable stations and at any given moment on channel 438 at 2pm on a Sunday afternoon see a commercial for anything from exercise equipment to “Sounds of the 70’s” CDs…
For now and the foreseeable future, I guess I have to be content with being “Internet famous” in my own mind. If others put me in that category, too, great. I just don’t see how a regular guy like me with a 9-5 job, a wife, two kids, a mortgage, a car payment, and all of the other real world things most of us “new media” types deal with every day really COULD break out of the “internet famous” box and into the just plain old “famous” category….where money seems to just flow.
A lot of us podcasters are what I call “hopeful hobbyists”. We podcast because we love it…and if someone wants to dump a bucket of money on us our our shows, we won’t complain… But it is just too difficult for the every day man with a microphone and an hour to kill once every few weeks while the baby’s down for a nap and his wife is shopping with the mother-in-law to knock on doors and drum up ways to monetize. We sit, we wait, we hope…but that bucket full of money just isn’t going to come for folks like me.
April 7th, 2008 at 7:47 am
[...] the victors go the spoils, and in this case, the spoils are links and all the commensurate fame and glory. [...]
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:19 am
[...] with Tim Bourquin’s observations about that. Twitter, blogs, podcasts and new media in general have created a wave of “famous” [...]